Washington National Cathedral

Lloyd: Welcome to the Sunday Forum. We’re delighted to have you here as we are exploring week by week the issues of faith and public life with some of the liveliest minds in Washington and beyond. And we have one of the liveliest minds and voices in the Washington area with us today.

I want to welcome Michel Martin to be with us. Michel is the host of a relatively new National Public Radio Show called “Tell Me More,” that’s being broadcast at 2 o’clock on WAMU Monday through Thursday, focusing on issues of diversity and multiculturalism in America. And just to show that this new Sunday Forum is on the cutting edge of what is happening in Washington—if you open your Washington Post today to the Style and Arts Section—you see a major article about Michel Martin and her new show. So be sure you go home and read it after the conversation for the day.

Michel Martin brings to her work more than 25 years of journalism. She’s reported for the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal and ABC News where she won an Emmy Award and the popular Nightline program with Ted Koppel.

Aside from that and on the side, but often at the center of her heart we know, is she’s the mother of two 4-year-old twins? Is that right? And has sometimes been a seminary student; we’ll want to hear a little more about.

Michel, it’s great to have you with us.

So, let’s start with this new job, this whole new adventure that’s been going since last year, sometime? Early 2006?

Martin: Yes, Dean, if you’ll just indulge me for a minute just to say what an honor it is to be here with you this morning. Some of you may know this, one of my closest friends is another broadcaster, Gwen Ifill, (she’s actually in Hong Kong at the moment, or she’d be here), and every now and again we have one of these experiences that we never expected to have. We call each other up and, forgive me, some of you might not like this language, but we call it our “colored girl moment.” Like, who would have thought that a colored girl in America could be, you know, having a moment like that? So, this is a colored girl moment for me. So I appreciate it. I’ll go home and go [squeals]. But thank you. It’s really great to be here.

So, yes, we started working on the program last year. We launched over the air April 30th of this year, but we were actually available in podcast form since last December. So, those of you who have iPods, you know, you could have been enjoying us all along.

Lloyd: Tell us about deciding to make your way into a daily talk show. You’ve done lots of other kinds of journalism. What made you think you wanted to get into that regular, full hour, every day broadcasting, and this particular topic? How did you land on it?

Martin: Well, you know, I was actually talking to Darrel about this earlier. He was asking whether the idea came to me, or did I have the idea? And one of the things that occurred to me is that maybe we think of entrepreneurs as people who are maybe carrying the widget around in their heads. But what I find to be the case is that the opportunity is what allows the idea to flourish. It’s often you don’t know what you’re capable of until the opportunity to act on it presents itself. And so that’s kind of what this was. What I have found is one of the things I’m trying to do with this program are things that were rattling around in my head all along, and not having had the opportunity to act on it. But now with that opportunity presenting itself, just the way we try to talk about issues, so much of the way we, the convention of news coverage has to do with conflict, Side A, Side B argue. And I feel that that really isn’t the way most of us live or want to live. Sometimes conflict is inevitable. That really is the way it is on an issue like immigration. There is a Side A, a Side B. But there’s often a Side C, D and E? And the C, D and E’s are the ones that never get talked to, or they never get a change to be heard in the way they want to be heard.

And so one of the things I thought to myself, I said, well what if it didn’t have to be that way? How could we do that if it wasn’t that way?

So one of the things I always said to myself, our show is called “Tell Me More,” which is a name we arrived at after a painful process which I won’t bore you with—it involved asking people to send names in and offering to take them to dinner—but at the end of the day that’s what it’s really about. It’s about “Tell… Me… More.” What else is there to say that perhaps isn’t being said? That’s one of the things we’re trying to accomplish, and I find when you’re talking about issues of race, diversity, gender, all those issues, that really C, D and E is really what it’s all about. Because A and B, everybody knows where they’re coming from.

Lloyd: So it sounds like, and certainly the article in the Washington Post says this, you were aware some voices weren’t getting heard as much as they needed to be across a whole wide spectrum. And you bring some very interesting, surprising voices to your program I want to talk about. But diversity is the big theme, but within that you want to find distinctive voices of all sorts and bring them into the conversation.

Martin: Well, let me just say that data is very clear, if you talk about who is being talked to in major media today—and I’m not saying this in an angry way like pointing a finger “these people are so wrong so I’m so right”—I’m just saying the data is very clear. The number of women who are quoted as experts and authorities is something like 25% across all media. Now the fact there are a lot of women hosts and presenters and anchors obscures the fact that women tend not to be consulted as people who know something. You know, women tend to be consulted as victims, or they tend to be, you know, as people to whom something has been done, but they don’t tend to be interviewed as people actually have mastered a topic other than themselves.

And let’s not even get into the question of people of color. I mean, forgive me, the Sunday morning talk shows. People of color are completely absent. If it were not for the Secretary of State, I dare say you could go months without seeing a person of color on the Sunday Morning Talk Shows. You hear them talked about! But you don’t hear them talked to.

And so I think, and Latinos. You would not know there are Latinos in the United States if you were judging from the people who get consulted to discuss major issues. So, looking at the facts, I feel there’s an opportunity there just to talk to the people we know are not being talked to.

So that’s thing one.

And thing two, is the way we talk to each other. I’m trying to accomplish. But we can talk more about that later.

Lloyd: Talk more about that.

Martin: Well, I think there’s a reason that our public discourse is as crude as it is. Part of it is, does anybody really dispute that it’s very crude? I mean does anybody really feel that you know half the time when you turn on talk radio, do you want to be part of that? I mean, they violate every tenant you were ever taught as children about how to speak to each other? I mean, come on. So, my thought was, let’s get back to basics. Let’s get back to core civility. Let’s get back to just basic common courtesy. Let’s get back to basic things like, wait till the other guy’s finished before you start talking! And if you don’t, I’ll cut your mike.

But then, beyond that, there’s the idea that you have to set up a confrontation when none necessarily need exist. So, all of those things we decided to—and also just the idea, just all kinds of things rattling around in my head. It’s one of the reasons I needed a daily show. I couldn’t get it all done in one day. I just couldn’t do it.

You know, a parenting segment. We have a parenting segment every Tuesday called “The Mocha Moms.” We talk seriously about issues in the news that are related to Mocha Moms. The Mocha Moms is an actual organization that exists. Some of you may e familiar with it. It was intended as a support group for mothers of color who stay at home because that’s an unusual choice, and communities of color, and most women of color are in the labor force. In fact, most women are in the labor force. That’s just part of a fact.

But there were issues of particular interest that they wanted to discuss, but the idea that just because you consider parenting your primary job means you somehow are stupid now, and you have a lobotomy, and you can’t discuss issues of public concern, is something that just makes me crazy. And so we had an expert from Consumer Reports to talk about the toy recall. But his whole point wasn’t just a sounding alarm, and “Mom, go crazy,” but it was to talk about why this is happening from a public policy perspective, and to tell you what you can do about it. So it’s both/and. Because I think that’s the way we really live our lives. I mean, who lives their lives all their own head? But who also only lives their lives only in their heart? It’s both/and. Especially in a place like Washington. It’s both/and.

I bet some of you out there are operating at a very high level of public policy, but then you go home and have to figure out what’s in the toy box. It’s both/and.

So that’s what we’re trying to accomplish.

But also in questions of diversity and multiculturalism, I think having civility as a core principal, I do not want to get away from how difficult diversity really is. I think this is a mistake we make in many areas of discussion in our country. It’s, on the one hand, one of the blessings of being an American, is we don’t live in the 16th century all the time. We’re not fighting feuds, you know, “my grandfather’s grandfathers’ grandfather killed your brother so therefore I have to hate you.” We don’t live in that world.

On the other hand, I sometimes think we minimize how difficult diversity really is. So one of the things I think we try to do is to be real about it, to talk about these things in a real way. To let people speak their truth about how difficult it is. So when you’re talking about an issue like immigration, I don’t think you have to be a racist to say that “it concerns me when I see my neighborhood changing in a way I don’t like. It concerns me when I see ten people living in a house that was made for four or five. It concerns me when I feel the public services that weren’t as excellent as I thought they should be anyway, are then being utilized in a way that perhaps I don’t agree with.” I don’t think you have to be a racist to say that.

On the other hand, sometimes people are being racist, and if that’s the case, then people need to have a space to say, “You’re going to start checking peoples’ immigration status based on what? How do I know having been born here just because I’m brown, that I’m not going to be the one to get stopped?” What does that mean to me? And are you disappearing me?

I guess what I’m trying to say is I feel sometimes people o good will are not helpful because they want to minimize differences, but I don’t think that minimizing differences really speaks the truth about how it feels and is lived.

Lloyd: This sounds very much like the report we’ve heard the last few weeks from Robert Putnam’s new book, who wrote Bowling Alone about the fragmenting of America in general, the dying of the sort of civil structures within society. Well, his new research is on diversity, talking about “we are an increasingly diverse nation, but lo and behold, that’s making us actually more tense and polarized rather than a more trusting and hopeful one.” What do you make of that?

Martin: Well, I actually had Robert Putnam on my show because I was so taken with this. I found this fascinating.

Lloyd: It goes against everything we hoped would be happening when we’re learning to live with each other.

Martin: It does go against what we hope would be happening, but I also think that hope has to lie in truth. And if the truth is that, you know I think if a lot of people feel diversity leads to conflict. But what he found—do you all know what we’re talking about? The Robert Putnam book, Bowling Alone, the idea that we are less engaged civically than we have been in the past. Instead of the bowling team, we all prefer to bowl alone? And he’s talked about the decline of civic engagement. His new work suggests that more diverse communities lead to more inertia rather than conflict. Rather than people out in the streets throwing cans at each other, you know that template for the busing controversy, many of you lived through the busing wars in various communities, sort of in Boston or here in Maryland, that you know, kids pushing each other on the school bus conflict, having fights in the school yard. In fact, with adults, what he has found is that people just stay home and watch TV.

You know, that they are inclined to withdraw from civic engagement because of the lack of trust. And I don’t know how you feel about this, but that makes sense to me. That feels right. It’s such cutting edge conversation that I don’t think there’s a lot of people to sort of back it up with another study. But inherently in my gut, it feels right to me.

And you can understand why. You can understand social cues that make sense to you when someone is just like you. When someone else behaves in a certain way, you’re just not sure where they’re coming from.

I remember in preaching class that Dean Lloyd mentioned that I was a student at seminary, and I still hope to be again. Actually, it was one of the best times in my life. But when my children came along I couldn’t figure out how to work and be faithful to them and continue my studies. So maybe magically someday I’ll figure out how to get 26 hours in a day. But one of the things I observed in my preaching class was, different students were giving their sort of preaching exercises, one of our colleagues chose to preach sitting on a stool. And I must tell you, that the African Americans in the class, we almost had a heart attack. We were like, “[Gasp!] He’s sitting down. He’s preaching.” And we just thought it was the most disrespectful thing, and we were trying not to, you could see people kind of [Gasp!], trying not to, you know, you know [whispers]. And evidently, this is custom in some of the churches like some of the community churches, smaller churches. They thought this was a way to sort of bring more intimacy into the experience. But we realized that none of us had ever experienced this before. And it was freaking us out. Because the idea was, how are you going to talk to people respectfully while you’re sitting down?

And also, another interesting thing, and I’ll just bring this up because it was a very... There was a woman in our class who had long hair, long blond hair. And she had a habit of now, [gestures] you know the sisters here, I see some nodding, you know what I’m going to say, right? This was felt to be this Breck Girl thing was felt to be very off-putting to many of the African Americans. Because they felt like she was showing off that she had all this hair. And when this was pointed out to her, she was very hurt because she said—actually, it was a nervous tic, but it was one of those things you realized that you have opinions that you don’t even know you have until you are confronted with difference that bring these differences to the fore, that make you uncomfortable.

So what is the logical thing you’ll do if somebody’s doing this? You’ll stay home. Right? You’re not going to, like, yell, “Stop shaking your hair.” What you’re probably going to do is just stay home.

Or, let’s take it the other way. Those of you who were raised in certain traditions. You’re raise in a certain style of discourse. Now, obviously because there have been a number of prominent preachers of color over the years maybe you have heard a certain style of preaching, but maybe that’s not what you want to hear every Sunday. So, you know I’ve heard it said from some people that, “well why are they yelling at us? Why is he yelling?” Whereas, if you come from another tradition, if you don’t hear a certain level of passion, then you don’t feel you’ve had church!

So, is it any wonder that it’s hard, it’s hard. And I think we do ourselves a disservice when we act like it’s easy when it really is hard. It really is hard.

Lloyd: And dramas involving misunderstand and deep spiritual gaps happen all the time. We did a lot of coverage of the Gina experience in Louisiana, a small town that caught up in major racial blowup, flooding into town, seemed like the Civil Rights Movement all over again. A group of black teenagers in Louisiana were charged with beating a white boy after a series of escalating racially inflammatory moments. We did a lot of work down there talking to people down there, talking to pastors involved there. Now a lot of commentary has come out saying that the blow-up wasn’t what it appeared to be at first and it wasn’t as nearly as racially inflammatory as the early accusations said. It almost seems like you’re getting old tapes about black and white and civil rights getting played out in a situation where it may not exactly fit. What do you make of kinds of understanding or misunderstanding that happened?

Martin: Actually, I would say I disagree with you on that. Well, you know it’s interesting. Where you stand on that is where you sit. That’s just a fact of it. There is no African American down there who’s going to say this is not a racial thing. Okay? So again, this is a difference in perspective. And there are many white people down there who feel the civil issues was blown out of proportion, but again, you know, how often have you heard that? For many people would argue, you know, look. We have this in households. How many times have you had between husbands and wives, somebody say, ‘well, that’s no big deal.” “Well, it’s a big deal to me.” That’s just humans.

But in this instance, I don’t know if any of you are familiar with this story that this has been going on all year. There was this high school in Jena, Louisiana, where the white kids were used to congregating under this tree. And one of the black students, who are a minority in the school, they’re about 25% of the student population, 25% of the town, went to the principal and said, “Can black kids sit under this tree too?” And the principal said, “Sit wherever you want.”

So some of the black kids decided to sit under this tree the next day, and then the day after that there were three nooses hung from this tree. Which the kids perceived as a threat. And so the Principal figured out who had done this and recommended that these kids be expelled because he felt it was meant as an act of intimidation. Well, the school superintendent, who also happens to be counsel to—just all kinds of, you know—overturned the principal’s recommendation, and gave the kids three days of in-school suspension. And the people feel this is very unfair. For example, it’s true this immediate incident was six black kids beat up a white kid, and he did have to go to the hospital. But prior to that, a number of black students had been beaten up by white students, and no one had ever been prosecuted for this. This one boy, the boy who had originally gone to the Principal and asked whether he could sit under the tree had a shotgun pulled on him, a loaded shotgun pulled on him, and had a beer bottle broken over his head. No one was prosecuted for this.

So, anyway, it’s been escalating all year long, culminating a month ago a group of maybe 10 or 20 thousand people went down to this little town. The population, which is only about 3500, to say this whole situation was unfair. The six black kids were charged with attempted murder for beating this white boy up, where these other kids who’d been beaten up, these black kids, had never been, even though everybody knows who did it, had never been prosecuted for any of these crimes at all. So it’s become a big issue.

But one of the things I found interesting. Did I mention this to you? We felt logically one place to go to discuss this was the clergy. And no white clergy in Jena would talk with us! None. None would speak to us about this. And I found, I found it interesting. I found it very much reminiscent of past days. What it called to mind was Martin Luther King’s Letter from the Birmingham Jail. Because I don’t know if any of you remember, but Letter from a Birmingham Jail was to the clergy of Birmingham. It was to the clergy, to his fellow clergy, saying where are you in this? And eventually we did have one pastor agree to talk to us who, interestingly enough, wasn’t raised there. Who came from the outside and who now pastoring there. He was from Texas. And he was able to explain why the white community feels, you know, how they feel.

But I just think, one of things I feel is that it’s not helpful to do is not talk. You know.

Lloyd: And, you, yourself, when you were at Wesley experienced something of this shock of racial hatred. Why don’t you say something about that? When the swastikas were painted.

Martin: Well, I don’t know what that was about. Sorry. (Let’s see. I’m ready for my music video.)

Lloyd: I would sing for you, but you wouldn’t want that.

Martin: Well, yes we were shut up in a class one day and then there were swastikas painted on the school buildings and I don’t know what that was about. I don’t. I found that fascinating because one of the things I’m grateful for that experience because I now understand what that feels like. Because you’re tempted to dismiss it as being ‘so what, just grow up and move on.’ But when you are confronted with a symbol like that in a place of safety for you, you can see just how offensive that is.

Lloyd: Symbols are loaded.

Martin: They are loaded. You can see—I don’t know what this is about—but apparently this is going on all over the country now. I don’t know if it’s a copy-cat thing, or people are just being provocative, but you know… Nooses too. There was one at the University of Maryland turned up outside this building housing several student organizations of Columbia University, a professor, at a high school in Brooklyn. It’s just, you know. I don’t know what that is.

Lloyd: One more question and then we’re going to throw it out for your questions. You recently interviewed an African American minister whose leading a campaign to break negative media stereotypes for women and minorities. And there was even a protest led again Black Entertainment Television. Tell us a little bit about that.

Martin: Well, I don’t know if any of you. This has been a very interesting, sort of ongoing issue in the African American communities, and I think many of you may have followed that whole Don Imus situation where he, the talk show host or radio show host, Don Imus, who earlier this year made these comments about the women’s basketball team and was fired for that. Well, this followed months of, years really (!), of using his show as a platform for this kind of conversation.

But one of the conversations that arose in the middle of that was the degree to which the community is responsible for this by tolerating and perpetuating these images. So here was a minister who came forward and said that Black Entertainment Television is offering a platform for this. So he’s been leading protests at Debra Lee’s house in Washington. I don’t know, but this is all very interesting because this question of the community calling itself to account for its own behavior is one that I think is unfamiliar to some people. But it’s also interesting because it sort of set a new way of—how to put this?—is that I would be curious what other people think about this because some people find it profoundly disrespectful and provocative. But other people I think would argue that this is exactly what people should be doing. I don’t know. I’m curious what other people think about that.

Lloyd: So we turn to your questions now. Darrel, our producer, is going to direct ushers one at a time to find you here. If you’d like to raise a question but are further in from the aisle, please step out and someone will come to you with a microphone. We’ll also take questions from our website. So by all means, send in your questions as well.

Q: Okay, first of all, Michel, I want to let you know I do respect the work you do. I’ve watched you over the years. I’m Julia [Clark?] and I’m a science administrator, and I’m looking at science, I’m looking at education in terms of diversity, and when I look at your topic and how multicultural is shaping America, when we look at the demographics in terms of the next fifteen or twenty years when the majority of individuals in this country will be people of color, how do you see this role when the table is turned and the majority persons will be persons of color? What major changes do you see will happen?

Martin: Well, thank you. I think actually this country is not going to be majority, well it’s more of a one generation away. I think the year 2050 is the year that’s generally cited when this country could a majority/minority. But if you think about the fact that African Americas are about 13% of the population, Latinos about 13.9% of the population, it’s only 26%. Asians are, what, 3% of the population. So that’s 30%? So really, there are cities which are now majority/minority, like Houston or Dallas, a number of cities along the Northeast, and certainly on the West Coast. But the country itself? Maybe, maybe not. You know. What I think is interesting is how people can feel that the country is majority/minority even when it isn’t. I think you have that in Washington DC. I think you have that in this area where people have the sense the city is actually more diverse than it actually is. And I think that may affect consciousness in a way that isn’t altogether healthy. Because I think sometimes people have the misperception that, well, I’m now giving you a bias. I’m giving you my bias. I’m giving you my opinion. So I’m just going to declare it as such, okay? This is my opinion.

I think that sometimes because people sometimes exaggerate the degree that the country has become sort of minority-oriented, that it stimulates fears and a backlash that are not necessarily warranted. And it also, I think, stimulates a misperception of how equal things really are. Which, you know, people look at a Condoleezza Rice or an Oprah Winfrey and they think, “Oh, everything’s fine now.” And you know I would remind people that, you know, Madam C. J. Walker was the first African American woman, first woman self-made millionaire in this country back in 1911 back in a time when, you know, five black people were being lynched every week So you can have individuals who have outstanding achievement, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the underlying disparities have been erased. So what interests me sometimes is thinking people think those underlying disparities have been erased because there are high achieving individuals and public individuals when in fact they are not. And I think sometimes it removes the urgency from addressing those questions. Quite honestly.

On the other hand, culturally, I do think that there have been some real impacts. I mean if you look at the data in terms of tolerance, I mean, you know, I was born in 1959, and you know 2/3rd of African Americans lived in poverty then. Lived below the poverty line. Two-thirds lived below the poverty line. And that is completely reversed today. Completely reversed today. So the degree I think to which the actual facts have changed, that changes perceptions, as it should. I think the percentage of people who can accurately report having a person of color or person of a different background or religion as a close associate has really changed over the years. I mean thirty years ago, I mean I would count you know I would say that I have a number of people of different backgrounds who are I would consider very close to me, close intimates of mine. My parents, that is simply just not the case. My parents, I dare say, I don’t think, I just don’t think it’s within their imaging to have a person who was not of their demographic background who they would consider a close friend and an equal. So of course those things have really changed the country.

And if you see the younger generation, they clearly have a very different attitude about friendship than a lot of us. But again that doesn’t change everything. Because if you look at who commits the hate crimes, it’s still the same generations. 18–24 year olds are the ones who commit hate crimes by in large. So you know, people are people, right?

Q: I’m a mother of four year old twins as well and I’m interested in your perspective as a mother but also as one who knows maybe about public policy and what’s happening. I wonder what do you think we perpetuate in terms of gender stereotypes especially when our children are young. So I’m interested in what you’ve observed as a mom, but also one who talks to mothers. What do you think we do that makes this gender problem perpetuate? And what do we do in the public policy that might make it continue as well?

Martin: Well, I thank you, and good luck to you. Because I know what you’re dealing with! You know what? I don’t think I know enough to answer that in the way you framed the question just because I have boy-girl twins. And I’m continually fascinated by the way in which they’re similar, the ways in which they’re different. And my wish for them is just to be who they’re supposed to be. I don’t want to impose, other than ethics and good work habits and a love of God and all those things—those are my core values. But other than that, the field is open. My daughter is very aggressive. She’s also very girly. And my son is very laid back. But he’s no push over. So I want them to be whoever they’re supposed to be.

But here’s what I would say about this. I think in terms of what concerns me about our public discourse is that we don’t seem to address the realities of the way we really live. As I mentioned before, four out of five mothers of young children, are in the labor force. But you would never know that from what we talk about in terms of public policy. When’s the last time you heard a presidential candidate talk about that? When’s the last time you heard a presidential candidate talk about who supposed to watch these kids? What are you supposed to do when a kid is sick? What are you supposed to do when your parents are sick? I mean this whole question of the squeeze generation, I mean, you know excuse me, I feel like I’m in the vise generation. You know, my parents are 80 years old and my children are four. And my siblings, all have young children. So, what are we supposed to do? And I’m very expensively educated. I know we can have these views about who’s supposed to do what and whether I should be working at all. I mean people are entitled to have their opinions about it. But at the end of the day I feel like I’m good at what I do and I have a responsibility to fulfill my education. And I’m good at it. And I like it. And so what should I do?

I guess I feel where the lack of realness gets in is we act like this doesn’t exist. You know like we’re not really having this conversation. That’s something I don’t understand from both a public policy perspective or from just a social perspective. We’ve all privatized our own issues. You know, it’s our own sort of personal problem. Okay. But at a certain point when it’s four out of five people, and it’s a community issue—and I also feel this is something… I feel this is something we are less real about gender than we are about race. Honestly.

Because at least with race we are allowed to say culturally I want to do this; I don’t like that. We’re allowed to say we’re different; we view things differently. But somehow pointing out that as men and women we have some different opinions, worldviews, that’s still taboo. So, I don’t know what I want to do, I guess if I’d figured it all out I’d be running for president, right? But I do think we owe ourselves more clarity and more honesty than we are really giving ourselves around these issues. I think part of it is because of the way, in Europe for example, the women’s movement developed very differently. In this country the women’s movement developed around sameness. We can do the same job. In Europe, the women’s movement developed around we are different and we want respect for our difference. And all I can tell you is it’s not working. Something is not working very well. And the degree to which we can all get real about that, I think it would be to our benefit. I’m not being very helpful. I’m just telling you the truth as I see it.

Lloyd: A question that has come in from the web: How do we begin productive conversations between different racial groups with an eye toward understand and reconciliation? How do we move this thing forward?

Martin: Well, I think it depends on what context you’re talking about. I think interpersonally, one of the things you can do is stay in the game. Is not withdraw when it’s easy to withdraw. Have you ever seen, been on the metro and you saw some kids being loud? Right? What do you want to do? You want to move to another car. What if you stayed in the car? What if you stayed in the game? What if you acted like those were your kids and say, “hey guys, do you think you could tone it down?” What do you think. Do you think, “Hey guys, are you kids using language that you would rather your kids not hear?” What if instead of leaving the car you stayed in the game. So that’s the first thing I would say. Stay in the game.

And this is not a warrant to say you have to live in a certain neighborhood or you can’t leave if you think the schools are doing—I don’t know. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying if we really want to talk to each other, you know what we need to do? We need to talk to each other. And just find a way to do that. That’s thing one.

And thing two, I think we reward demagogues, which is why they keep demagoguing. We reward people who distill a message down to its essence and stick with that. The political process we reward, and people wonder why do we have so much negative campaign? Because it works. So if you don’t reward people for that, they won’t do it. When people get rewarded for conducting different kinds of campaigns, that’s what they will do. I would point out in Massachusetts, Duval Patrick did not run a single negative ad in his campaign for governor, even though he was subjecting an ongoing campaign of negative attacks by his opponent, his Republican opponent. He’d made a choice, and he succeeded. So that changes the template for what is possible.

So that’s one thing I would argue.

And I would also say look for opportunities. I would say lean into the discomfort.

Lloyd: Can churches be a part of this?

Martin: Absolutely. I think the church is the logical place to be a part of it. I also think you know we do this too in the news business. We look for news pegs. So of course Black History Month because of news peg and Martin Luther King Day becomes a news peg, so it’s Martin Luther King Day so everybody’s going to have their reconciliation service. So okay, and that’s fine and everybody goes back to the place where they’re going to go. But, my question is, is that really the way you live? Is there one day a year you’re open to it? Is that the only day of the year you’re open to it? Or are there other opportunities?

Like I wonder around this whole immigration question whether the churches couldn’t be more helpful in helping people to sort out their feelings about what is happening to their society and how they want to deal with these questions without… One thing I think churches can do is show people how to talk. One of things I think is true, I don’t know how many of you, I think part of what happens when we bowl alone is we lose the art of conversation. We lose the ability to discuss. What did we used to do for entertainment? We’d get together and talk and we’d sing and people would sit on the porch and they’d tell stories to each other. Well, one of the things that happens when you have a media saturated society, you have no need to talk to each other. You can watch other people talk, so we stop talking to each other. And I think people lose the art of conversation.

I observed this a couple years ago when I moved, you know I used to do Washington Week a lot, and at first I noticed a change in the kind of mail we got. At first the mail was very friendly and constructive. It would be like, you, I just want to tell you I enjoy you on the program but you mispronounced nuclear. And, you know, it would in the kind of spirit of an interested friend. And then all of a sudden, it became very sort of hateful, and “you’re an idiot”. And “I can’t believe, you’re a fool, who would even put you on the TV.” And so I answer all of my mail. Always have. Always do. I mean I answer all of my mail. And I once wrote back to this woman who wrote me “you’re a fool” letters, and I said, “I understand your point. You make an interesting point, but why do you feel the need to be so obnoxious?” And she said, “Oh, I just wanted to get your attention.” She wrote me back. “I just wanted to get your attention.” And I said, “That is not necessary.”

So one of the things I think churches can do is show people how to talk to each other again because I think a lot of people have forgotten how to have a conversation where people don’t necessarily agree. I think that’s almost more important.

Lloyd: We have time for one last question.

Q: Hello Michel.

Martin: Hello!

Q: I just want to ask how do you think we can get people out of our boxes of churches and to mix it up more on the streets, in neighborhoods that are not our own? How can we just come together in different ways in this country, show a stronger example of how people should come together in other countries?

Martin: First of all I think everybody needs a box at some point. I mean we do need comfort. I mean why do you go to church? You go to be challenged? You go to be affirmed? If there’s too much challenge, it’s not a great experience. If it’s too much affirmation, you’re not growing. You need both. You need comfort. You need to be challenged and you need to be affirmed. You need both. You need comfort and you need the challenge. So at some point everybody does need their box, okay? I have no problem with that. Okay?

But what I think we need is points of mutual interest, is one reason why I have, one of my segments is called the Mocha Moms, where we mix it up. I have another segment called Barber Shop where I have—it’s a guy segment just because our show is, we have a lot of women on that show, I don’t have to tell you we have a lot of women on that show. So I thought I want to have a guy space where guys could talk their guy stuff. But we mix it up. It has a diverse group of men. The Mocha Moms similarly. We have a core group but we mix it up. And we talk about issues of mutual interest which is interests connected to kids. And I think that’s the logical place to start. Things you are already interested in anyway.

It’s just like mentoring. I have kids call me up all the time and they want me to be their mentor. And I say to them, mentoring takes place in the context of real work. If you want to be mentored, then show up at work because if you just want to have lunch, that’s just lunch, that’s nothing. Lunch is nothing. Lunch is nothing. Mentoring and friendship takes place within the context of real work in my opinion.

So I think when people come together around issues of mutual interest whether it’s their school or a neighborhood issues, what I wish is people would find ways to come together they—how can I put this—here I am proselytizing. I apologize. But to me, the loud people are always going to be the space. The loud people will always find their way into the space. It’s the quiet ones, you quiet ones who need to stay in the game. Because I often find it’s the quiet ones who fought through a problem, an issue, and though “okay, what if this?” You need the other quiet ones, and if all the quiet ones leave, then who’s left? Now I’m loud, so I’m not saying… But I’m just saying we need to stay in the game.

And progressive people, the people—I know progressive is loaded in the current environment—so I mean it in a sense of people who feel they have something to contribute, who are of good will, allowing themselves to be chased out of public discourse by the most abrasive elements are, you know, that’s who I’m talking to. That’s whom I’m talking to. We need to stiffen our backbones and stand up for your values because civility is a value which is worthy of defending. And common good is a value which in my view is worthy of defending. And I don’t think you need to defend it with your loudness, but there is something called a ministry of presence, and that is something we all can offer.

So. I’ll step back from my box.

Lloyd: You’re gone into preaching at the end. Thank you all for coming to be part of this conversation and many thanks to Michel Martin. This has been an exciting conversation and very challenging for all of us. Wonderful to have you here.

Quick word. Next week the Forum continues on All Saints Day with a discussion of what it means to be a saint. We’re going to have Robert Ellsberg who’s written several books on saints, to give you the ten easy steps to sainthood. So come be with us next go-round.

We hope you’ll stay for the service this morning. It takes place at 11:15 in just a few minutes. In between, just now, there is coffee available at the west end of the Cathedral. Thank you for being here and thanks again to Michel. It was great to have you.