Washington National Cathedral

Sam Lloyd: Good morning, and welcome. Week by week, we are carrying on a conversation about the relationship between faith and public life. Today we want to focus particularly on the faith part of that combination. That is, what’s going on in the life of the Christian faith around our globe these days?

To lead us in that conversation, I’m delighted to welcome Dr. Samuel Kobia, who is the General Secretary of the World Council of Churches, representing some five hundred and sixty million Christians. That’s about half a billion Christians around the world. He’s an ordained Methodist minister from Kenya, author of the book Called to the One Hope. He comes to us today from his headquarters in Geneva, but he’s been traveling quite a bit since then. But he comes to us to give us a chance to learn something about what is going on in global Christianity, what are some of the critical needs in our world today, and how can people of faith and Christians in particular do something to respond to those. So Dr. Kobia, it’s great to have you here with us today.

Samuel Kobia: Thank you very much. I’m very pleased to be here this morning.

Lloyd: World Council of Churches. That’s probably not the first thing on the tips of the tongues of most people here in Washington, D.C. Tell us about what it is, how it does its work, and what your role is in it.

Kobia: Well, the World Council of Churches will be marking its sixtieth anniversary next year, 2008. It was inaugurated in Amsterdam in 1948, but it should have been already formed before that time. But because of the Second World War, the delay in the formal inauguration of the World Council was put off to 1948.

In 1948 in Amsterdam, the main Protestant and Orthodox churches were in Amsterdam to form the World Council of Churches. It has since then remained the most comprehensive fellowship of churches around the world, bringing together 347 member churches. As you indicate, the membership of these churches is anything between 560 to six hundred million.

Because of the war, the World Council was formed. The whole idea was to seek ways of overcoming historical divisions which we know churches have, which prevent it from fulfilling the prayer of Jesus Christ that all may be one so that the world may believe. And the objective of the World Council therefore is to seek unity among Christian churches. And secondly, to have a way of witnessing together to the whole world, so that the world may believe, as the prayer of Jesus said. The third objective, of course, is to be of service to humanity.

So the World Council has, these sixty years, been coordinating, at a global level, platforms where churches come together.

Today we have more churches from the south belonging to the World Council of Churches than from the north. And so, for the first time, we see this shift of what has been seen as a North Atlantic ecumenical organization to truly global Christian fellowship.

Lloyd: Speaking of “North Atlantic organization” having been originally its vision, or at least the impression it has given, you’re the first African general secretary of the World Council of Churches. You have been traveling around, seeing a very different Christianity developing all over the globe, a very different kind of Christianity, all over the globe. Could you say a few general things about what strikes you as you travel around and see Christianity being lived out in so many different ways?

Kobia: Yes, I’m the first African to be elected general secretary of the World Council of Churches. I’m the fifth general secretary. Part of the work of the general secretary of the World Council of Churches is to visit member churches, visit our constituencies around the world.

The trouble in the north and in the south, in the east and in the west, I do observe that in the north, and particularly in Europe, there is a steady decline of Christianity. More and more of the magnificent churches, of course this Cathedral is one of the most magnificent church buildings that I see, but I do see in Europe there are many of these Gothic beautiful Cathedrals that today have very very few people worshiping in them, and they are not really still used as the kind of sanctuaries that they were built to be.

When I travel to the south, it’s the opposite. I go to these places where you have churches that simply can’t hold the number of worshipers every morning. I come from Nairobi, Kenya, and I was very struck by the fact that one of the small chapels in the campus of the Nairobi University, where we used to have just a small handful of worshiping students and university faculty people. Today this has grown into such a big church that they have to have six services a day! That is the phenomenal growth of Christianity in the south.

Christianity in Africa, in Africa especially, is seen not only just as a religion, but this is the opportunity of people to contribute to national building, to peace and reconciliation, to development, and therefore, the church becomes the center of activity.

Lloyd: Could I ask you a question? I want to stay with the fact of this growth for just a minute, because it’s so extraordinary. I was reading your book. The projection is by the year 2025 there will be seven hundred million African Christians, having in early 20th century been about ten million. Seven hundred million. Four hundred sixty million in Asia. Six hundred ninety-five million in Latin America. Five hundred thirty million in Europe. Two hundred thirty-five [million] in the U.S.A. It is just booming. And you describe in there the great churches in London, Saint Martin-in-the-Fields, would be empty on Sunday were it not for the tourists that visit. And during the week, all in all, together you say, half of the worshipers in London these days are black, African, West Indian. What has happened to the European worship experience as we know it?

Kobia: These trends that you have mentioned, and the statistics that I also quote in my book, we have scholars who have been doing research the growth and trends of Christianity, and therefore I think these are correct as it could be. There is no doubt in my mind that, by the middle of this century, the center of gravity of Christianity would have shifted from the north to the south.

Of course, the question that I always ask my fellow Christians in Africa is, “What kind of Christianity is this going to be?”

Now, what is interesting is, the growth of Christianity in the global south, as we call it today, is also reflected in the growth of the migrant church. In Europe, many of the churches where you find active life are those that have migrants as members of that church. But also, another trend I have observed is that Africans, Asians, particularly, are now beginning to have their own congregations in Europe.

And in fact, not long time ago, I had a visit of the leadership of Association of African Churches in Europe, which is growing so fast that they want also to become members of the World Council of Churches. These are the ones who are injecting life into the church in Europe. If it were not for African and Asian Catholic priests, I would say that in France today, that the Roman Catholic Church would close down many of their churches, because they don’t have the French priests enough to provide the ministry that is needed.

So what I see is that, with the growth of post-modernity, Christians in Europe have very little to do with the church. I think the way the church is organized traditionally is no longer attractive to post-modern European Christians.

Lloyd: Well, maybe I asked you entirely the wrong question when I asked what’s going on with European Christianity. The important question is, what’s going on in the global south? Why are they growing? What do they know that we don’t know, that we can learn from?

Kobia: I think many of the Africa Christians find hope in the Gospel in a way that I think European Christians somehow don’t find. What has been called African traditional religion, I think that provides a very important foundation for African Christians. Where religion is seen not as a part-time occupation, but it permeates the whole life. And there are many Africans who therefore think that their future will be much more hopeful if they embrace the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And it is for that reason that you’ll find that there’s a kind of revival that’s going on in the churches in Africa. Because they don’t know who else provides the kind of hope that the Gospel provides. It’s not politics. It’s not economics. Many of them have given up listening to political leaders, or any other leaders, other than those that who say that their faith in Jesus Christ does give you hope. And I think it’s because of the ways sometimes that the churches in African have responded to the needs of the people, whether we are talking of physical means, or social means, or economic means, I think the church has been perhaps the most organized, providing practical ways, at times when the political repression and oppression were very real in the lives of people before, especially during, the Cold War era.

I think during that time the church emerged as the only institution. Most the other institutions had been systematically destroyed by one-party dictatorships or military dictators. And therefore the church has emerged out of that period as what gives hope to the people. I think that’s why it is today becoming such a respected institution.

Lloyd: And the emergence of a strong church in the global south is also creating some major tensions between the churches of the global north, so we might say, the industrial west and the global south. Theologically, spiritually, the way their faith is enacted, the way worship takes place, all of that is strikingly different. Our own Anglican Communion is living through some of that tension right now. There’s a sense I understand of, in the global south, a sense of supernaturalism and expectation that God will act. Sometimes a literalism in reading Scripture, but a Pentecostal sense that the Holy Spirit is at work.

How are these two very different ways of being Christianity learn, not only how to get along, but maybe mutually support each other?

Kobia: Yes. It is true that we find there are some differences and even tensions between the mainline Protestant churches, the Roman Catholic Church on the one hand, and the Charismatic, Pentecostal churches. In fact, Pentecostalism is growing so strongly and so fast, to the extent that today you will find many of the mainline Protestant churches embracing Pentecostalism as a form of worship, because it’s more attractive, it’s more lively, and Africans like to express themselves when they worship, and so forth. So it’s becoming very attractive, and there are many who are joining it.

Social and moral issues are obviously going to be more divisive in the African churches. You mention the Anglican church, for example. I do see that, within the Anglican Communion, there are many African Anglican bishops who have taken up the issue of human sexuality, for example, and are beginning to say that for them what matters most is what they conceive to be the truth, the Gospel truth. And I fear that we could see a split between those who say the Communion is not so important for them, as long as they think they’re ones embracing the truth as they understand it from the Bible. I think this is a very dangerous trend.

We have to find ways of providing space and framework within which this potentially divisive issues could be dealt with.

Lloyd: One can imagine the frame of mind of vibrant African bishop leading a vibrant African community such as Peter Akinola in Nigeria where on a given—and again, I learned this from you—on a given Sunday, there are more people in the pews in his churches in Nigeria than in all—more Anglicans—than in the United States and Europe put together. So he might be wondering why they’re having to take the lead from Canterbury or from Washington, D.C., in the Anglican Communion now, when the vibrancy and the numbers are happening there. So we have both a theological problem and a problem of asymmetry and power and resources between the two areas.

Kobia: Yeah, that is correct. In Nigeria, obviously, the population of Anglicans is very high. In my own country, Kenya, Archbishop Benjamin Nzimbi, the other archbishop, who does support Peter Akinola in many ways. They do have, they are leaders of huge congregations, churches, parishes, dioceses.

What I think will be helpful is not to have really a dichotomy between what those archbishops consider as the truth themselves, and what the more liberal bishops consider, as they need to deal with today’s challenges. There’s no question that the human sexuality is a major challenge today. I think the way Archbishop Akinola, for example, or Archbishop Benjamin Nzimbi, addressing the human sexuality issue, is rather too narrow. And I think there is a denial, sometimes, among these leaders that this is not a problem of the south, but it’s purely a problem of the north. I don’t think it’s as simple as that any more. And I think that’s where we need to engage and have a dialogue, a meaningful dialogue.

The World Council of Churches has had the problem of human sexuality that was established after the Harare Assembly in 1998. And what we have done is to provide spaces for a dialogue between all those who have responsibilities in their churches. And I think this has helped very much because, for example, in Africa, you can’t talk of HIV and AIDS without addressing the issue of human sexuality. So just narrowing it down to homosexuality doesn’t help. And I think this is where we need to engage some of these leaders. I think, if many of them are helped to see the bigger picture, they should be able also to want to listen to the persons around us.

Lloyd: And part of the bigger picture that you talk so eloquently about is the urgent needs, especially regarding the impact of globalization in the world and global poverty. One of the things you write a great deal about is what is happening to the economies of a lot of the countries that you visit and have relationships with. Could you say a word about what you see globalization, something we talk a lot about in this country from a different perspective, what globalization seems to be doing, what kind of impact it is having around the world?

Kobia: Well, there’s no doubt that economic globalization has tremendous impact on not only economies, the social life, the cultural life of people. The economic globalization has exacerbated the disparities between the very rich and the very poor within and between nations and the states.

In my view, there are three main threats that I see to the world peace today. And one of them is these disparities, injustices that clearly are there, because we could find a place where an economy is growing very well. Like in my own country Kenya for example, where the economic growth in the last three years has been between seven and nine percent. But when I travel, and I listen to the people, and I tell them, “Well, I’m happy to see that the economy is growing so well.” But many of them say, “But it doesn’t affect our lives on the ground,” in the day-to-day needs of the people.

So economic globalization can show statistics. The economy is doing very well, but when I go to the ground and talk about experiences, are people actually benefiting from that growth? That doesn’t happen. So that’s one problem I see with economic globalization and the economies of the south.

The second one is, when there’s so much unregulated way of trading, you’ll find that the economies of the south are adversely affected by the international trend as it is signed through the WTO, the World Trade Organization. And therefore what I see is that yes, it is possible to see in terms of statistics that the economy, even global economy, is doing very well. But does that translate into better lives of the people? I think that’s where the question is.

And that’s where I would say, coming back to one of the reasons that I said the church is gaining respectability among the people in Africa, is because you’ll find that the church is with the people, in every small corner. The remotest parts of the country and of the continent in southern Africa, lots of churches there. And therefore, when it comes to the issues of providing services there, schools, and even food, I would say you’ve seen there are more and more of the people who have benefited from the way the churches have contributed to their economic life. And therefore I would say that unregulated, unchecked globalization, while globalization has adverse affects on the lives of many people in the south.

Lloyd: Are there any responses that you were trying to make to that, or inviting some of the churches to participate and offer guidance, thoughtful responses to what has happening in globalization? It seems to be a train very hard to stop rolling down the track.

Kobia: Yes, the train will go. It will not stop. I think the challenge here is, on the one hand, what can we do to impact the policies, the macro-policies at the global level and at national levels? And this is where the World Council of Churches, in our Economic Justice Program, we had for a period of three years a very intensive series of encounters between the World Bank and IMF and the World Trade Organization and the World Council of Churches. What we said is that we are bringing live voices of the people who are victims of globalization for you to hear. And I think it’s because of the way churches have been organized sometimes that we have had possibilities of impacting policies of these Bretton Woods institutions. That’s the global level.

At the local level, there are places, South Africa for example, which again, because of its history, you know, you have people, especially in the townships in South Africa, who are not benefiting from the national economy, but to where churches are organizing, micro-financing institutions, and being able to use the economies of affection that is practiced by Africans to try and provide opportunities.

I think it’s a question of broadening opportunities for the people, because many of these people, so-called poor people, are very active. One you give them opportunities, I think you’ll be surprised how far they can go. And this is where I see the churches coming in.

Lloyd: We want to go to our listeners to offer any questions they might have, but while the people with the microphones are getting out, I have one more question for you. You, at the World Council of Churches, are involved in something called “A Decade to Overcome Violence.” Would you say something about what you are hoping to achieve in that that, and what your concern is?

Kobia: Yes. The Decade to Overcome Violence was proclaimed by the World Council of Churches in 2001, and it goes on until 2010. In 2011, we are going to have an international ecumenical peace convocation in order to harvest the fruits of these ten years of the Decade to Overcome Violence.

But I would say that it will also be a time of planting season once again. We want to have fresh initiatives, because we realize that there are more and more people within the churches who are embracing this idea of overcoming violence.

Through a program we have put together, called “Living Letters Team Visits,” we are using this to pose the idea of “living letters,” where we send people to be with the people in situations where they need solidarity, where they need pastoral visits. And what I hope we are doing is to help churches to form movements of churches seeking peace and reconciliation.

And examples of how churches are doing this are there, which we want to harness and make a network of churches from around the world, as well as Christians who themselves have undertaken the challenge of being peacemakers, if you will, because the whole idea is to see how churches can become generally peace-makers in the communities, and in the nations, and in the world as a whole.

So, through the Decade to Overcome Violence, we have been able to establish a network of people who are actively engaged in peace and reconciliation. We had, not a long time ago, living letters team visits to the United States here. And reading the report of that team, and listening—and, as I say, I listen a lot when I travel—I am amazing to see how much impact that…

You remember last year, the killing in the Amish school of six children, etc., but then the Amish community in Pennsylvania offered forgiveness and reconciliation to the widow of the person who killed. And this has impacted so many people around the world. They just cannot believe that you do have a community such as that, that can transcend bitterness and anger and hatred, and instead of seeking revenge, they seek forgiveness and reconciliation. This story is being told around the world by the World Council of Churches Decade to Overcome Violence.

Similarly, we had another experience from Sri Lanka, where this year we had living letters, went to Sri Lanka, and it was actually the Anglican church there, and Anglican bishop who said that, in this community, where a majority of people are not even Christians, to see people coming from Europe and North America and Africa and other places to say, here we come, simply to be with you, and to say that we pray for you and for your situation.

I think it’s these possibilities of helping people in different parts of the world. People who have no idea that Christians in the U.S.A. could quite possibly set aside time to intercede for their situation. I think this is the impact that we want to have with this Decade to Overcome Violence.

And you’ll be hearing from us as we move on, because we’ll be inviting more and more people to join these teams of living letters to the different parts of the world.

Lloyd: Let’s go to questions from our audience.

Question 1: Before I ask a question, I should probably disclose that, although basically I grew up in the Philippines as a Methodist, I’m a member of the Methodist faith. As you probably know, there were reports of harassment of religious workers in the Philippines. In fact, there are documented reports of assassination of Protestant pastors, and the UN Special Rapporteur for Human Rights actually visited the Philippines and issued a report for attributing these killings to the Philippine military.

My question relates to what should the church response be in the face of this direct assault on its workers, and in the face of this state propaganda suffused with the subtle suggestion that somehow these religious workers are involved in the insurgency groups in the countryside? I guess the interesting dynamic is that the church, or somehow these religious workers, are not viewed as third-party advocates for peace, but more as partisans by the military. That’s why they’re being targeted.

Lloyd: I had a very hard time hearing. Could you restate just the question in one sentence please.

Question 1: I’m asking about the situation in the Philippines, where there have been reports of killings of religious workers, and assassinations even of pastors.

Kobia: I was in the Philippines a month ago at the invitation of the National Council of Churches in the Philippines. And the focus of my visit was exactly what you are saying, the extra-judicial killings, disappearances, and insurgencies, who clearly are being targeted by government in a massive violation of human rights.

I spent half a day listening to the testimonies of the relatives of those who had been killed extra-judicially. And after listening to this, I clearly wanted to express it to the government of the Philippines that, listening to what the Christians, and even non-Christians, are saying there. Last year they had the assassination of the supreme bishop of the Independent Church in the Philippines, Bishop Ramento. And I think what you are saying is very true.

The churches in the Philippines are today very divided about the situation, as I came to learn, but what we have said as the World Council is that we will work in solidarity with the National Council of Churches in the Philippines, as well as with those politicians who are themselves working to advocate for victims of these killings. We have provided opportunities in Geneva for the delegations from the Philippines when they come to attend the meetings of the UN Human Rights Council, and they have appreciated this very much. And we came up with a proposal on how we can do more of this as the World Council.

And secondly, to make this known to the wider international community. I think this is most we can do. We are obviously providing support for those who need legal support and they cannot afford it. So there are many practical things we are doing. But I think we are pointed to a situation that clearly we need to have on our ecumenical agenda, and as the World Council of Churches, we do have that.

Question 2: Thank you so much for sharing and being here with us today. You’ve mentioned a couple times about Christian and the non-Christians coming today together on different issues, and I’m very interested. Here in Washington, D.C., this last year we had a Unity Walk, where we had all of the different faiths come together, the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Muslims. And I’m curious, particularly in today’s global world, one family under God, your interaction as the leader of world churches. How much interaction? Is there partnership with these other faiths? Are there collaborations with them on different kinds of things? If you could share that.

Kobia: The World Council of Churches has had a program on inter-religious dialogue for about six years now. At the assembly last year, we decided we are now going to be talking of inter-religious dialogue and cooperation. Went beyond dialogue. And in October, we received a letter signed by 138 Muslim scholars, clerics and leaders. The subject of the letter is the common word between us and you.

And they identified the common word as love: love of God and love of neighbor. I think this is the first time we have heard this number of Muslims wanting to work together with the Christians, and it was sent to the leaders of all the major Christian denominations. My proposal to the membership of the World Council is that we welcome this, we have an approach to it, and we are planning therefore next year to have the major consultation with those who signed this letter—now they have been 144. They were 138 in October when they signed.

Just saying this to illustrate that the need for working with the people of other faiths is extremely important in our globalized world today. We have dialogue with Jews, with Muslims, with the Buddhists, with the Hindus, etc., and we have therefore a framework already for, especially, seeking ways of helping people in communities and in specific contexts.

Because actually, that’s where the problem is: the problem is not with the scholars and the leaders. Dialogue has helped to bring about mutual respect in this regard. It is actually where people live in multi-faith communities. And this is a problem for us in the World Council of Churches.

Question 3: Mr. Secretary, I have a question about the peculiar United States Constitution requirement of separation of church and state. I noticed the World Council of Churches quite regularly lobbies the Congress and the White House, especially with regard to peace in the Middle East and Palestine and Israel. I’m for that. But how do you justify lobbying when our Constitution requires separation of church and state?

Kobia: Yes, I must say that I am all for separation between church and state. We have, as the World Council of Churches, had this position of separation between church and state, I think, since its inception. But what we also insist is that the state has the responsibilities and the duties that, of course it’s clear cut in the Constitution, one of which is to guarantee the freedom of conscience and religion, and the organization, etc.

But we also have seen in history that the state seeks to use the church when they need justification on some of the things that the state does. I think we have to be very careful as the churches, there’s no question that the church, to be church, cannot stay away from being involved in political life of every country, of the world, to the extent that politics is so important in determining the welfare or otherwise of people, etc.

But to be partisan is what I think could be dangerous for the church. And therefore, while the church must, as a matter of principle, ground its work on the Gospel, talking of Christian churches on the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to allow ourselves in any situation—not only here in the United States, but in my own country, Kenya, or wherever else—to allow ourselves to be used or to align ourselves the way the partisan interests is very, very dangerous.

And therefore I think the separation of church and state is important for both the state and for the church. For me, when we are faithful to the Gospel, when we use the Bible and our faith as the foundation of what we do, we don’t need any political ideas or the state to tell us what to do, because there is sufficient, in terms of what we need to do, I think the Bible is enough. Then the actual lives of people as is affected by politics or by the actions of the state.

And therefore the World Council doesn’t… Yes, it is true we criticize the governments anywhere in the world, when we see that governments are doing wrong things to do with injustices, etc., etc. But we do that because we believe we are being faithful to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Lloyd: This has been a very rich conversation Dr. Kobia, and we thank you so much for being with us. And I want to say we are taking a holiday now for the next two or three weeks from our Sunday Forums, coming back on January 13. We will begin a new series with Michael Gerson, who, you may know, has been a Bush administration speechwriter and advisor, who will talk about “Faith, Politics and the Conservative Movement.”

For now, our service begins at 11:15. We hope you’ll linger for that this morning, but in the meantime coffee is available at the west end of the Cathedral, and Dr. Kobia will join us there for just a few minutes. Please join me in thanking Dr. Kobia.